Macro Miners and Some Ideas
If you haven't already, go have a listen to the most recent Fly Reckless, where our very own Paul is a featured guest. It's pretty funny (shout out to drunk Angus!), but they do cover some serious topics, including macro miners.
As mentioned in the podcast, Eve's in-house economist, Dr. Eyjólfur "Eyjo" Guðmundsson (good luck pronouncing that), recently made a statement that banning all macro miners would crash the EVE economy. I'd like to be able to provide the source for this, but I couldn't find it on the Google. Any reader who wants to take up this challenge will get some sort of bonus from me.
The idea of a "market crash" is that without the large supply of minerals supplied by macro miners, prices on everything would rise sharply. This would cause players to leave the game, is the theory, because they wouldn't be able to buy things. I'm not sure this is actually the result. As supply drops, demand rises, driving costs of minerals up - and suddenly mining becomes more profitable. More players move into mining, and the prices stabilize. They just never return to the same prices as possible by large number of botters running 23/7.
I don't think this is a bad thing. Mining is the redheaded stepchild of careers in EVE. Nothing is more boring than mining. It currently returns barely enough ISK to self-support an account by buying PLEX. A solid L4 missioner can pull in 50m or more an hour once they get some experience. Boosting the value of mining is to be considered a good thing, even if causes short-term havoc on the market. It also acts to drive up costs of everything - which in my mind is good. Make losing that T2 ship more painful. Better game play, more stress, more emotional investment.
My opinion on macro mining is slightly different than most. I do not think all macroers can ever be detected and eliminated. In order to determine the difference between a bot and a real person, you need a real person; computer's can't do it. The next smarter bot will just break the existing computer solution. Killing bots doesn't scale well - it takes too many people and man hours.
The better solution is to make macro mining unprofitable - in real life. We know that macros are used to generate ISK which is then sold in RMT (real money transactions) to make real cash. If we can drop the value returned by macros below the point where it's worthwhile for people to run the bots (and pay PLEX for accounts) then they'll stop doing this and start doing something else.
My proposed solution has two components: It uses a method that penalizes macros more than regular players, and doesn't break immersion. A key attribute of macros is that they can run non-stop; a lot of macros will run for 23 hours a day, 7 days a week. Slightly more clever ones will run for 18 hours and then take 6 hours off, and start again. At the same time, we know that very, very few real players actually mine non-stop for these volumes of time. They might do it once in a while, but for a month on end? No way. (If you do, I am so so sorry for you. Seriously.) We can't just say anyone mining more than 18 hours a day is a bot, because we may actually catch a person actually doing this. The more hours you accumulate mining per month, however, the more likely you look like a bot.
We start by adding a new counter to every account (not just player, to prevent player switching on an account), and this is amount of time mining laser has been activated in the past 30 days. This value is incremented while the player has any mining laser active (but only once, no matter how many lasers active), which won't be hard to program. This gives us an idea of how much this account mines.
Let's take an average player miner, and say he mines for 2 to 4 hours a day, five days a week. Over a month this gives us 40 to 80 hours a month (or less, as mining lasers aren't always active, but you get the idea). These guys shouldn't get any penalty. Now go up to the really hardcore player miners, a very small bunch. Say they mine for 6 to 8 hours a day, 6 days a week. That's 144 to 192 hours a month. Some of these guys might actually be bots, so we want to penalize them, but not much. Again, this is going to be a very small group. Who do you know that mines 8 hours a day 6 days a week? Above 192 hours a month we become increasingly sure that the account is a bot. A full-on, 23/7 account is 690 hours a month, and we're 100% these guys are bots. They are harshly penalized.
Our penalty for being a botter - or at least seeming like one - will not be to outright ban, but to cut into the return. If you're out mining for a really long time, it's kind of reasonable that you might attract attention, of the bad type. So here's what we do: Every hour, each miner has a certain percentage chance, increasing with number of hours mined, that dangerous pirates will spawn and attack. Our pirates will be four cruiser or battlecruiser class ships, and they all warp scramble. Furthermore, they scram as rapidly as CONCORD does. We do not want our botters to be aligned and just warp off when these guys spawn. These spawns have low bounty value and low or no drops, to prevent farming. If you're a real player who plays an insane amount, bring a defense ship or corpmate. You should be able to afford it.
What percentages are we talking about? Up to 144 hours/month, 0%. From 144 to 200 hours/month, very slowly rising, say max of 5% at 200. The percentage then sharply rises after 200, hitting 100% around 300. 300 hours a month means this account is mining 10 hours a day, every single day of a month, without stop.
FAQ
Q: Doesn't this unfairly impact people who mine all the time?
A: If you mine 7 hours a day, every single day, without rest, it might. This is a tiny, tiny, tiny number of people. And a lot of bots.
Q: Won't bots just limit themselves to mining only enough not to trigger the spawn?
A: If they do, that's great. They've just limited their own income, putting them on the same level as regular human miners. They may stop entirely because the value isn't worth it.
Q: Won't macros start using cheap ships?
A: If they do, so much the better. It will again cap some of their income.
Q: Won't macros start running missions?
A: I haven't seen a successful mission macro yet; the complexity is large. It won't be such a problem, as the effect on the mineral market from mining is smaller.
What do you say, readers?
33 comments
Interesting idea, and a new angle on this that makes things interesting, particularly if the spawn acts like sleepers a little (ie, they tend to target hostile ships first, or switch targets,) so actively defended players are less likely to be losing hulks if they're organized.
That said, it doesn't look like this deals well with the belt-chaining drone-farming areas well. Doesn't a large volume of the minerals come from the drone regions, which are farmed by teams of bots that just go through and harvest drone poop? How can we fit this scenario into here as well?
Just quickly regarding the Dr. Eyjo quote: I heard it told in a CCP interview with some CCP employees (Lost in Eve? don't remember); and the gist wasn't so much that banning all macro miners would crash the economy, but banning them all _at the same time_.
What's to stop miners from mining 23/7 and just putting 4-6 miners in a belt with a battleship? Have one actual player looking at the battleship or whatever and he can probably handle 2-3 belt groups.
That would defeat the purpose of bots, which is that they don't require a human at the controls. Also, the spawn would be for each player. So, 4 bots, and suddenly our human controlled battleship has to deal with 16 hostile, warp-scramming battleships.
Source is exactly as Druur said, it was the CCP Soundwave/CCP Sunset on the recent Lost in EVE episode, and it was indeed "Banning them all AT ONCE would be disastrous for le economy"
After reading the whole article: interesting idea - it might even work!
And similar ideas might be applied (carefully) so areas like the aforementioned drone farming: have an enraged insta-scramming mother drone spawn whenever a certain amount of her children have been destroyed by the same player, would put a kink into drone farming as well.
Also, I totally made that comment before reading the entire thing as I wanted to point out that it was Lost In EVE's interview, but this system is ridiculously genius. A few questions, percentage chance = percent chance that a rat spawn will be the dangerous rats, right? And wouldn't those spawns need to have the targeting mechanic that CONCORD does, i.e. they only focus on the player that is the macrominer/criminal?
Percentage chance every hour that hostile warp-scrambling pirates appear. So at 30% you've got a 1/3 chance of getting one every hour.
Ah, noted. However, I'd suggest something closer to 15 minutes, maybe even 10 minutes. An hour gives them enough time to fill up a hold, then warp back to station, it doesn't cut their profits too much and it might reset the hourly spawn timer.
This is an interesting idea. That said, I'm a little surprised you haven't heard about all the botter tears that have been shed since Fanfest. CCP totally destroyed one mining bot called RoidRipper and it went out of business. The developers of other mining bots are telling their users not to mine more than an average person would or they will get caught by CCP. The dev for a bot called TinyMiner even told his users that they needed to go out an run missions on their botting characters in order to try to fool CCP.
The story about the comment about not wanting to ban all bots at the same time is consistent with what CCP Sreegs said at Fanfest. He is doing a "slow burn" instead of a mass ban.
As for mission bots, they exist. In the GeneralStab logs that were leaked by Razor, The Mittani said that if he were going to start an RMT business, he would put a bot called Questor on as many clients as he could run. But it looks like CCP is going after the mining bots first, although I've heard they may have started targeting a market bot.
Oh, and according to the botting forums, a lot of botters are not only afraid to bot for more than 6-8 hours, they are also afraid to bot on consecutive days. There are even reports that CCP has swung the ban hammer even when the botter was sitting at the keyboard.
Now to go listen to that podcast :)
I'm familiar with RoidRipper but I haven't kept up on the macro-miner news. Good to hear CCP is doing something =)
hmmm, two things,
1) I do know a fanatic miner who has logged 25 hrs straight (with downtime not counting) but she is at the far end of the scale
2) How would it increment if the botter who switches alts on one acct?
I like the idea . . . I would even be willing to settle for the occasional captcha test or some other nuisance just to remove them
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I think the post said it'll be tracked by account, not character/player ip
You know, the more I read things like this the more I think people are focusing on the wrong thing. Empire macro miners bring in what a few mil per hour? And do they actually add isk to the game? No, they just create an item that can be used to trade for existing isk. Even market macros don't actually create isk. Now rafting macros operating in 0.0 create a metric tin of isk. Browsing through some of their forums I've seen guys that could buy a super every month or so with the wallet balances that they've posted screen shots of. That isk is generated out if thin air and leads to inflation in the game, whereas them miners don't create isk out of thin air and the items that the minerals are used to build tend to get blown up. So, of all the types of bots out there, the miners are the least of my concern. My first focus would be ratters, then traders, then missioners, then if I got to it, the miners. Just my two cents worth.
That's an interesting point. Handle the ratters in the same way, start giving them near-impossible spawns if they're on for stupid amounts of time?
Macro Hulk miners bring in considerably more than a "few" mil per hour, but you have a point regardless. There's probably an equal amount of 0.0 ratting bots and highsec miner bots, and the 0.0 bots pull down about 10 times more per hour lol
From the numbers I saw, the average max cargo Hulk brings in about 1.5 mil isk per haul every 15 minutes or so. That equates to about 6 mil per hour. There are single rats available in belts with that as the bounty on one rat. If you wanna see the wallet balances of the ratters just google H-bot macro and look at the wallet balances some of the guys have on their forum.
Pretty interesting idea, the only problem I have with it is that it feels like you're putting a limit on mining. Kinda like those f2p mmos where you have an energy bar, and you can only do so many raids or whatever per day. So it's kinda like you can only mine for this long or else we'll spawn rats that'll kill you. True, the bar may be raised high as to getting pentalized, and true you can get friends to kill the rats. But you don't really see any other profession in EVE having such a boundry line... Just my 2 isk.
You could mine for 23 hours straight and this wouldn't trigger. Unless you started doing that every single day for weeks on end.
I have a buddy that mines 10-12 hours a day on legal alts while he plays on his main. The numbers for profitability are off though. Macro miners are mining ice these days, which is more profitable that normal minerals. My friend manages 4 alts (3 Mackinaws + Orca Booster) and pulls in just over 11M per hour per Mack. So he gets 33M an hour. Of course, he has to pay for 4 alts plus himself so that takes away from the profits. But he just has a timer app on his phone and while he watches TV, does homework, or programs (Comp Sci student) he keeps the miners active. Has to move ice to Orca every 8 mins and dock and unload every hour.
Also, there are player corps that go find macro miners and suicide gank them. They even pay to replace ships if they mistakenly kill an AFK player miner (or so I have heard; never been killed by one). Why not just have an increasing bounty on miners that are out 300+ hours? Make it worthwhile for more players to find and suicide them. Let players do the hard work so macro miners are less effective at finding work arounds. Then, if players really care about the macro'rs, they have the ability to deal with them.
Ultimately I think CCP does want to deal with it. Plex is one of the best anti-macro programs out there. Decreases the demand for riskier RWT transactions, which is why CCP controls PLEX prices and have committed to continue that. It also allows people in game to compete with Macros to trade time for Real World Money (their subscription fee).
No offense, but your friend is one of the very few cases where someone is fucked up enough to mine more than 3 hours at a time, even if it's afk mining :P As such, he's a speshul case.
None taken, and I agree. :)
However, my point was not to imply he needs special treatment, but to point out that macro mining is more profitable than people realize.
I like this Idea, it adds some spice to life and I think that it can be applied in varying degrees all through out EvE. In the case with miners it would cause them to work more with other players. As naturally if prey plays in one place for too long the predator with find them.
By the way, banning all macroers at once would not crash the market, it would hyper-inflate the market. Very different repercussions.
i like the idea, but instead of some random pirates turning up and going pew pew, How about linking the inherant dangers of mining directly. not just the ores themselves but all the "unrefinables" that we seem to lose during refining.
much like a nuclear reactor, there could be an associated "exposure time" to the materials in space, the guidelines you gave sound pretty fair, you could even have some fluff / implants / boosters to combat this effect,
Prolonged exposure makes automated robots glitch , modules not cycle or become weak, crewmembers sick or even dying reducing the mining effectiveness of the ship, even the players pod could be overwhelmed by the slow creep of radiation , repairs would do nothing as the radiation seeps back into the structure,
the only thing would be letting it decay naturally (or artificially) by not exposing the ship/player/pod for a while. ( eg 10 hrs offline would offset a 10 hr mining session) which most normal players would get when they sleep,
as you said someone who is doing 300+ hours a month, you could do quite a hefty penaltly 50-60% (or more) reduced mining or even destruction of their modules after a cycle or two, much like overheating.
just an idea anyway,
I have heard better ideas than this one I don't like it but it does not matter. You touched on the real cause here. CCP has a good idea how many bots they have and a decent idea who they are. The problem is the number of them and how much money those accounts bring in. White Noise was outted last year as an Alliance based on RMT. They came out of nowhere and conquered large sections of null all in the name of RMT. They were caught and nothing was done about it. Why because CCP was making too much money off of them. Now White Noise is a large contender in the Alliance Tournament. No good idea will make it's way into the game until you can address the profitability from CCP's standpoint not the player's.
actually at the beginning of the post you already dismantled your attempt:
"[..] The next smarter bot will just break the existing computer solution. [..]"
adding those random insta webbing pirates would just be another "computer solution". figure what happens...
That means a computer solution that attempts to identify bots. This solution doesn't identify bots; it treats anyone (including players) who mine more than a specific amount as a problem, and does something about it.
what i meant to say is, bots are able to handle nearly any ingame mechanic. bots are able to run market transactions, mining, ratting, hauling...
so why not this: the next bot that will arise is the one, who protects his mining pals.
That's fine. That means another account is used... hitting the profitability down.
i mine ALOT. and i mean. ALOT. about 95% of my eve time. i mine.
with few breaks. ya. i'm a mining fan!
so its very unfair me / my type of player. so. i guess its u either need to allow for more. of my type. or re-invent the wheel.
@Mr.Mine.ALOT: You mine more than 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, for months on end?
If so, yes, this will effect you. I'm sorry, but do something else in EVE. Or get a life.
@ Khalia Nestune, why dont u stop beeing a troll, i was leaving a decent honest comment, about my play style, do us all a fave. n go die under ur bridge or something, and leave ur smug replys there aswell, i was just saying its unfair. to pure industrial players, who actually mine properly wiv out botting.
thats it. so troll off, ya freak.