"Greed is Good" Pay2Win Scandal Update
After more than 24 hours of silence and 70+ pages of rage in the threadnaught related to CCP's goal to deliver Pay2Win microtransactions, CCP Pann has made a post in General Discussion asking that we bear with CCP while it figures out WTF it's gonna do.
Hi, everyone
Some of you who have been around for a while may remember me. I was the original community manager for EVE. These days, I oversee the PR and Community teams. While most of what I do happens behind the curtains, I am still aware of what’s going on front and center. I would be lying if I said that what’s happening now didn’t make me sad, but I’m not here to ask for your sympathy. To be perfectly honest, I’m here to buy time while we try to sort things out. No sense in lying about it so I'll call a spade a spade.
It’s clear that many of you are angry . There’s a lot happening, things are changing quickly and we haven’t been as forthcoming as you were used to in the past. I’m willing to step out front and take a lot of heat for that since I was the one who made the decision to hold off on responding for a while to see if things cooled down once the new wore off.
I was wrong to do that and I apologize. We should have said something much sooner. We should have done more to address your concerns and be forthcoming, even if we weren’t going to be able to immediately give you all of the answers you were looking for or the answer your questions in ways that will instantly turn those frowns upside down. To be even more candid, I cannot answer all of your questions, either, but I am working with the people who can to start getting those answers for you. Again, I know we’re doing this past the expiration date of your patience but I hope you’ll bear with me.
I know that, with very few exceptions, most of you don’t know me from Adam. I haven’t earned your trust or respect; therefore I have no right to ask anything of you – but I am going to try, anyway. Can I please count on at least some of you to help bring the pitchforks and torches down a few notches?
Like I said, I won’t be able to answer all of your questions tonight, but I promise we’ll start getting some info out tomorrow. As I see it, the chief complaint is regarding the high cost of goods in the Nobel Market. Second, many people are unhappy about the Captain’s Quarters. Third, there are some performance issues with Incarna. I would appreciate it if you would confirm my observations or tell me what I’m missing, but I do ask that you do it in a productive way. I will remove posts without prejudice if they are counterproductive to the conversation I hope to have with you.
If you’ve read this much, thanks for staying with me. If you have something to say, I’d like very much to hear it.
Humbly yours,
~P~
Allow me to re-quote the most important part of the post:
As I see it, the chief complaint is regarding the high cost of goods in the Nobel Market. Second, many people are unhappy about the Captain’s Quarters. Third, there are some performance issues with Incarna.
This is WRONG, and the comments so far on the thread reflect that wrongness.
If the $60 monocles, letdown of the FAMC (Forever Alone Minmatar Closet), performance issues, and game-breaking bugs were all that the community was raging about, do you think that I'd be threatening to leave the game I love? The game that I currently know of no replacement for? Frankly, I wouldn't have given the patch a second thought if that were the case. "Oh, another crappy expansion release." I'd say. "It's hardly the first. They'll fix it up soon."
This is about the promise that you made to us that real-money transactions would be for vanity items ONLY. You started breaking this promise at some point since then, and may have been lying to us from the beginning.
And now you make a post saying you'll address our concerns, and completely ignore the one item that will cause the greatest exodus from your subscriber base. Forgive us the pitchforks, but we're feeling used and betrayed here.
Where's the butterfly effect in this? What's the point of being in a game where the individual's actions matter, if those actions can be counterbalanced by someone willing to open their wallet and have you create something out of thin air?
As for what can be done to restore our trust? I can't speak for everyone, but for me nothing less than a top-down shakedown of your organization will do for me. I'll need a written pledge not to sully the game with Pay2Win MT, and a reiteration of the earlier pledge to introduce MT for vanity items only.
This probably is too much to ask, as it appears that a large part of your business plan now revolves around this suicidal attempt to squeeze more cash out of your subscriber base in exchange for in-game advantages. What I expect you'll do is issue a half-assed "we're sorry you're upset, we promise we'll be careful" non-apology apology. No personnel changes will take place, and the only lesson you'll have learned is that your betrayal of your customers should be more carefully concealed until you decide that you don't need us anymore.
Frankly, I've been depressed since this came to light. Eve was and is the greatest multiplayer game ever produced. There is no place to seek refuge for players who want a true sandbox MMO once you go down this path. I am sure that a large portion of the folks claiming that they will terminate their accounts over this will be unable to resist the draw and come crawling back.
I'm not one of them. Sod the content-poor walking in stations, and the dreadnaught-priced monocles, and the FAMC. They're either fixable or ignorable.
If you do not dramatically reverse course on Pay2Win, I will walk away from this game. I'll be grieving as I do so, but I will walk away.
Amen. What a classic CCP response, I saw this post on my blog's link bar to the side and was like "I bet myself 500mil isk that the response is either corporate non-speak or they got it completely wrong".
I'm sad to be proven right... hopefully the additional rage in the threadnaught is showing CCP just how misguided they are.
If your going to quote the title of a document for dramatic effect, you should probably quote it correctly. "Greed is good?"
"This is about the promise that you made to us that real-money transactions would be for vanity items ONLY. You started breaking this promise at some point since then, and may have been lying to us from the beginning."
When and how was this promise broken?
It hasn't been broken... yet... but the newsletter clearly shows that they're considering it. Or that they'd like to consider it.
These things must be discussed in a company if it wants to move forward and distinguish itself from it's competitors. For a real discussion to take place you need someone to play devils advocate.
For all it's flaws Eve offers a truly unique experience when compared to most other MMO's out there, it didn't get to where it is by doing what everyone else does.
Fair, but the main rub is that they promised something, and now it looks like they're reneging on that promise.
So let them consider it. Until and unless they actually DO it, the game is not affected in the least.
The irony here is hilarious. Here we have the famous griefer and infiltrator Paul Clavet, totally bent out of shape when griefed by a bigger player. He who openly lies (collects ransoms promising to let the victim go, then killing them anyway) is now all mad that he was promised no Play2Win MT, but it turns out to be a lie. He who relished griefing people to quit the game, has now been griefed into quitting.
You see Paul, CCP knows their game, and they play it very well. They're the biggest, most ruthless griefer in New Eden. They've set you up, taking your monthly fee all this time, building up Eve in your mind, letting you think they're making a great game for you. Not. They're making a profit engine for themselves.
How many times have you laughed at the rage and threats of your victims? CCP is laughing at your lame "reverse course or I'll walk away" threats.
What was it you said on the Fly Reckless podcast? You prefer dishonesty? Unless your on the receiving side, eh? CCP practices dishonesty too, only they're better at it.
CCP is the best Eve player. They wrote the book on "always bet on stupid". And you, me, and thousands of others gave them what they wanted. And now with Incarna, they're ready for a whole new crop of stupid to fill their coffers.
So stop crying your delicious subscriber tears - CCP is just lapping them up.
Yes, the irony of your post is funny. The hypocrisy even more so.
You're clever
I'm going to assume that you're either completely daft, or a troll.
This would be akin to laughing at someone who repeatedly beats you at tennis when they get hit by a car.
Sorry but there is a huge difference between what a player does in a GAME as a fictitious persona which only affects other characters and actions taken by a company in REAL LIFE that could affect hundreds of jobs and livelihoods.
I see zero irony in Paul's post. As I tweeted just now, this thing with CCP/EVE is like a bad relationship where the sex is great and all the rest is shit. Very hard to walk away from even when you know you should (and this is obviously a personal decision on the part of individual players, different fro each), the cravings last for a long time, and there is really nothing as satisfying to replace it.
That's probably the best description of the situation I've seen so far.
Posting to confirm that I would probably trade some great sex for Eve.
Yes, there was a lot of troll in my comment. But I do see irony.
It's more akin to laughing at a bully who just got bullied by a bigger bully. CCP is behaving much like a bully IMO - a typical corporation.
Hit by a car? No one's been hit by a car - not even close. Paul, how do the changes they are talking about impact your game style? There won't be any less stupid in the game, possibly more. There won't be any way to buy better corp security. You can't by smarts or experience. What you will get is players getting stuff sooner, before they've learned the hard lessons, so there will likely be more and better loot for you when you teach them those hard lessons. I see upside and no downside for your style of play.
I have a strong cynicism towards corporations, and CCP is reinforcing it. I was hoping that would come out in my reference to CCP as a griefer in my comment - apparently not. Corporations exist to make money. The ONLY thing they measure success by is profit. If they behave ethically, it's because their bottom line would be threatened if they didn't. Corporations don't care about affecting jobs and livelihoods unless it supports the bottom line. CCP is doing exactly that - they have decided (rightly or wrongly) that their bottom line is best served by Incarna, virtual goods/MT (possibly including in-game advantages), etc. And that's where they're going, like a freight train.
Mynxee's analogy is flawed. A relationship is one to one - you have a lot of influence and control over where it goes (if you don't you shouldn't be there). An individual without bags of money has little to no influence or control over a corporation like CCP. Getting emotionally invested in something you have no control of (like Eve) is stupid. CCP is betting and profiting on stupid. You've heard Hilmar talking the "Eve is real" line? Soundwave and StevieSG where asking Fanfest visitors "Is Eve real?", and people were saying yes! Eve isn't real, it's a game, but if CCP can get people believing it's real, then they've successfully bet on stupid.
Treat the game as something you exchange money for play time for, nothing more. If you enjoy the time, it was a good exchange. Like a restaurant you frequent, as long as you enjoy the meal experience you'll return, otherwise you'll find another place. Don't get emotionally invested in the game. Get emotionally invested with the players you meet, befriend, and play with in the game, but not the game. The game isn't real, your friendships are. You and your friends can find other places to socialize when the game dies. Good friendships will far outlast and be more rewarding than the game can ever be.
I agree completely.
"It is a game about internet spaceships"
Paul said:
"...if those actions can be counterbalanced by someone willing to open their wallet and have you create something out of thin air?"
Paul, you know that already happens - any 6-week old player can (and many will) dish out $$ for plex to get a double-tanked small-lazer-fit navy mega to get you after you killed their myrm.
It's the "out of thin air" thing that's the point imho, because it completely bypasses the mining/invention/production people, thus hurting the market.
A subtle but real difference is that those items can still be bought with ISK. Aurum items can *only* be bought with Aurum, which is derived from PLEX, forcing PLEX sales and purchases.
Read this carefully and think about it.
Do a contracts search for "Occular Implant". If you chose to accept one such contract, hey presto isk to vanity!
* "Ocular Implant" (one c)
I think a lot of people have allowed themselves to be convinced of something that's just not true here.
The 'leaked memo' reads like a list of suggestions - some of them opposed to each other. It's not a policy statement; not even a secret one. Yet you guys - and I mean ''you" as in "everyone in EVE that's emoraging over this" - are acting like it's a set-in-stone business plan. CCP has not implemented non-vanity on the Noble market and the fact that someone at the company thought up the idea and wrote it down is no kind of evidence that it's actually in the works or was even seriously considered by the company. You guys are panicking and demanding a response to nothing.
Several of you have pointed out that "even if CCP gives a statement" saying the same thing as I've just said, you wouldn't trust them. There's no rationale for that - but if that's true then you should've been quit long already.
The people involved in writing the memo are also important CCP employees. This isn't just a "here are some ideas", this represents the opinions of employees who influence the game design.
So? They aren't the only employees with influence.
I'm not saying "pay2win" isn't quitworthy. But the game is not currently pay2win. What we have here is only proof that the idea had occurred to one of the devs, but to date has NOT been implemented. Twisting this factoid into "proof that CCP has been plotting all along to bleh" is misrepresentation. I would even say that it could only even look that way to someone who had already convinced themselves it was true.
Sad to say I killed the billing for all three of my accounts this morning.
I'm not even hard core on microtransactions, even game-affecting ones. If they were smartly done, if they were integrated into the player economy (let the industrialists buy special parts for cash and make it up in isk on the resulting item sales in the regular market), and if they were intelligently designed so that rich noobs bought "advantages" that also require having skill to enjoy, if they were items that tend to drop in wrecks... it could even make the game better.
But it's clear they are doing NONE of that. And meanwhile, the inexorable march of patches without spaceship content, without iteration, and without "quality" continues.
Maybe they'll still fix it all someday. But I've lost hope. And I'm not paying to wait, not for another year like I have been. In another year I expect EVE to be free to play, microtransaction hell, and circling the drain.
I've pretty much lost hope after the utter bollocks that was the devblog on the matter.
Yeah. That was a complete "fuck you" devblog.
They are going full microtransaction. They are betting the company. They know it's transformative, and they've decided to bite the bullet anyway. "To hell with the community, we can make more money by churning new sales." But for whatever messaging reasons, they aren't willing to baldly say so.
It might even WORK in a profit sense, but it won't be EVE.
The devblog explicitly states that the opinions in the employee newsletter are not policy. Whether its tone was 'nice enough', the matter is resolved - no play2win.
"I shop therefore I am" was all I needed to read in the leaked doc to realise that what I want from EVE and what CPP see me as are fundamentally unresolvable.
LOL, Checkmite, that's not in the devblog I read, which carefully stayed a mile away from that question.
Maybe you read the wrong devblog. The one I read said
"Therefore we dedicated an entire issue to exactly that topic. It‘s worth mentioning that the topic of the issue was "Greed is good?" as a way to ask a question that would then be debated back and forth and often exaggerated purposefully to draw contrasts and make points. The result of that is now widely available on the internet.
The opinions and views expressed in Fearless are just that; opinions and views. They are not CCP policy nor are they a reliable source of CCP views as a company. The employees who submitted articles to that newsletter did exactly what they were asked to do, write about theories and opinions from an exaggerated stand."
How is "they are not CCP policy" ambiguous in the least?
And there it is:
http://bit.ly/j0jjvO
Either EN24 or their source deliberately stripped out all disclaimers and references in the newsletter to the arguments in that feature being hypothetical exaggerations and not reflective of actual CCP plans or policy. The motivation of whomever it was is obvious to see from what ensued.
Congratulations, you quit for no reason whatsoever. And you didn't even give me your stuff first.
"the matter is resolved – no play2win."
The devblog you cite does not say this, nor anything close to this. It does not resolve this. You fail.
The point is moot now; the reason to suspect that pay2win is coming has been shown to be spurious. The sky isn't falling.
You may continue to emorage if you wish; I'm going back to harvesting tears until something worth concern actually happens.
Most of us won't believe it until we get a statement from Hilmarr.
Delicious tears!
The best griefer-ninja-tears consumer in EVE is emoragequitting.
How ironical life is...
Anyway I will miss your griefer posts.
all the players want is assurance that ccp won't make eve play2win.
But they said that they would not do so.
A real life comparison would be like a high school basketball game, your team against theirs, but they bought the miami heat, and you have a couple of high schoolers.
How would that game be fair if your team does not want to spend actual money to gain an unfair advantage???
all of you who think this is ironic coming from a griefer probably did not pass english
As a spanish guy i hardly pass english :(
When this game has been "fair"?
And yes it is ironic. The company has used their knowledge of their rules to gain advantage and make profit, if "not for the lulz" maybe "for the walletz" of the owners (this needs to be pconfirmed. The difference is that they are not making jokes or laughing at the people ragequitting.
you don't seem to see what we are saying, why should someone who works less in the game be able to access the same things with out the effort?
If player one has to mine and run missions, and train skills over a long period of time to be able to fly a tengu
why should player two be able to start later, run no missions our mine, and just buy skill points and ships and be able to compete on the same level with no work.
I have played Ogame, a kind of space ships game that was free, then the developers introduced "dark matter", allowing players to spend real life money to gain bonuses
My droid messed up, but continuing,
The feature ruined the game and a lot of people quit
Why should one person win because they are willing to double down and spend real money on stuff that gives them an advantage???
And its not real irony, a rl comparison would be some guy beating you in a fight because he is better, and some officer offers to sell him a gun that you should not have to buy
CCP is going to lose its good player base while the impatient noobs will spend real money to progress, which will in return destroy the learning curve and make them hit the wall of boredom faster, then eve will have no players
First, You are taking a lot of thing that can or cannot be plausible as real facts. We don't know what will happen. In fact this is something that is not important to me:
some guy wants to spend a lot of bucks in a fancy monocle or a moustache to be more like Dirty Dick Dastardly?... ridiculous but perfect!
Do some guy want to make the same with "golden ammo" to blow the thing faster... again perfect! This will only give him some advantage.
What is ironic for me is that those "big bad wolves" of EVE, those who laugh at the face of the"carebears" after cleaning their loot and blowing their mission CNRs, now are whining and threatening CCP with "stop or unsub" techniques.
Just like those poor carebears who were mocked at blogs and then pontificated with things like: "Eve it's a harsh place" , "harden the fuck up", "EVE is just a game", "brains" etc. and the natural explanation that this is what the developers intended to be the game... a harsh place
Now they are very angry because "what the developers would intend to be the game" and ragequit ... and that is funny!
And please stop comparing RL with a game of internet spaceships. EVE is just a game ;)
Hehehe
Well they have not said that they would not.
your analogy skills are lacking...
I pay real life money for my main and I earn isk to plex my other two
I should not have to pay more to be able to compete at the same level.
Everything has a comparison, thats how things connect. That is how I make sense of unknowns.
You rule a real life comparison as not working because it truly does not, I have nothing against you, and I don't care if you change your mind, just realize that this will ruin the game for anyone who has worked hard for something only to have some.two week player buy his way to the same level, that is bullshit. or go with it and refund us for our wasted time.
Wow. So much rage.
Personally, I think things have been blown way out of proportion.
"OH GOD PLEX ONLY SHIT. PAY2WIN IS NEXT!!!"
No. I sincerely doubt that CCP would introduce that mechanism. The majority of the playerbase would never accept it. I certainly wouldn't. On that note though, I have seen no proof that it's coming or even that they're actually considering it. All I see on the matter is a bunch of extremely scared players.
I'm not quitting. Not until CCP actually implements game changing purchases. If they ever do, which I see as highly unlikely, I'd quit instantly. But as it is, I see the game growing. If CCP wants to create a market for real cash for simple vanity items, let them. It breaks nothing, gives people moar to buy, and generates more revenue for them.
I think CCP knows that implementing Pay2Win is an incredibly bad idea. I would ask you all why they didn't roll it out with the Aurum market in the first place with Incarna if it was going to happen. The market feature is certainly ready for it, so why didn't they do it? My only thought on it is that they had no intention of it.
Honestly I see this all as players seeing what they want to see. Believing CCP is taking a road they fear CCP will take simply because they want to believe that this is the case.